![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
coyotesuspect) wrote2010-07-19 12:17 am
you know how I love Sam and hate season 4 and show's gender!fail? Yeah...
What was the big deal about Sam killing Lilith? I understand the whole setting off the Apocalypse thing. But everyone wanted to call Lilith. I don't understand why it says something negative about Sam that he was the one to kill Lilith. Dean and Bobby's whole plan was to keep Sam locked up in the panic room so they could go kill Lilith on their own. Hell, maybe Ruby was even there as a safeguard- to kill Lilith in case Sam chickened out last minute. Even LILITH was on the "kill Lilith" bandwagon.
Think about it- how awesome would it have been if Bobby were the one to gank Lilith. Then he would have coped with ending the world by thinking about all the things that suck and will no longer exist. Like Republicans. And people who talk on their cell phone in the line at the grocery store.
I understand the meta-narrative reasons for why Sam had to be the one who did it- and I get that because Chuck* is the writer and the writer is God (or maybe it's Chuck is God and God is a writer), most of Supernatural's meta-narrative reasons can also be handwaved as narrative reasons. But, putting aside Fate and Literary Symmetry, there's no convincing narrative reasons for why Sam was the only who could kill Lilith, and why this is something he should feel guilty about. (What? The colt wouldn't have worked on her? Suspicious.)
Even in a season 4 where Sam and Dean are completely chill with each other and held hands and skipped through fields of flowers, they probably still would have ended up killing Lilith. Because Lilith was Evil and Trying to End the World. And that fact- that it was always going to end up in that church- makes the whole season 4 Brothers at Odds! drama and Lying, Sneaky Ruby kind of...pointless.
It would have made more sense for Sam to feel guilty and awful over the innocent woman he drained of blood. (Though, if Mystery Spot showed us anything, it's that Sam has no problems draining people of blood when Dean Winchester is on the line.) And I think having one of the brother's explore the ramifications of their actions on other people on a smaller, more intimate level would have been interesting. Because there is a lot of collateral damage that gets handwaved.
And, let's face it, Sam, while he is my Favoritest Favorite Ever to Favorite, has an entire story and character arc based on dead women. At least Mary gets some backstory, but we don't know a single thing about who Jess was. While fandom has done a great job reclaiming her, her entire purpose is to set Sam into his journey. She's not a character; she's a plot device. I would have liked an exploration of who this woman was that Sam killed, and why her death is more important than Just One More Damn Thing for Sam to Feel Guilty About. (Granted, the whole Dead Woman as Vehicle for Male Character Motivation applies to Dean [and John!] as well, it is much lesser extent.)
Also, I want a pony. >( *crosses arms across chest*
So all the wincest fanservice in the latter half of season 5 is Chuck trying to woo Becky back.
He keeps sending her manuscripts with stuff like "soulmates!" and "erotically codependent" highlighted. And Becky's all, "Well...." But she can't get over Dean throwing the amulet away.
Chuck of course, objects to this one little thing standing in the way of their relationship. "Sometimes characters take on a mind of their own! It was a worthless McGuffin anyway!" But Becky's firm, and she keeps deleting the messages he leaves on her answering machine. (Perhaps Chuck also sets up a livejournal and tries to woo Becky back in the form of one of those weird LJ BFF/Internet soulmate kind of things. Hi, ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif){kind=small}
familiardevil !)
Then, as a last ditch effort, he e-mails her the manuscript for Swan Song. She shows up to his house, and he is all, :O! But I thought you would hate me killing off your favorite character and sending Dean to play house with that woman from half the series ago!
Chuck: Uh! Yes! They will! There may even be making out! Uh. Not in the published version, you understand. But, you know! Apocryphal making out.
Someone should write this, is all I'm saying.
Also, I still think
familiardevil did the whole "God as a writer" thing much better than show. God, I don't even know what that was. That was all over the place. I've had a lot of sugar today.
To make this post even more gratuitous, Captain America, everyone:
no subject
That's basically what I was saying for the entirety of season 5. I sometimes think adding multiple things together is a little difficult for some people in fandom.
I always reasoned that Lilith was like the strongest demon to ever demon and that's why it had to be Sam and his jedi powers. The Colt wouldn't work because we saw in season 3 (Malleus Malleficarum) that the Colt is not infallible--I don't know if it always was or if when Ruby "fixed" it, she just didn't fix it good enough. And the knife won't work because the damn thing couldn't even kill Alistair. I think a lot of people misunderstood Dean's frustration at Sam for "choosing Ruby" (necessary quotation marks are necessary) over him for being upset about killing Lilith which...no. Though even that's a little understandable because somewhere between 4.22 and 5.01, there was some weird little writer weirdness going on that led to Sam, Dean and Castiel magically being BFF for no reason (not to bash Castiel or anything [more than I tend to naturally], it just still makes no sense to me).
3:30 is my excuse for excess parenthesis.
I enjoy your Chuck/Becky theory because I love them lots and canon doesn't get to take them away to give me Dean/Lisa, I won't let them.
ETA: I feel like this comes off as 5.01 = failcakes which...a little, but Castiel was only ever consistent from writer to writer and also first season premiere without Kim, which...if you're Kripke and you already had to write/direct the finale without Kim and you're writing the premiere and you know you can't direct that so you're trying to think of who CAN, you're not going to be on the top of your game even if you know you should be. Because when you consider that the past three seasons of your show, it didn't matter what the fuck you wrote because Kim Manners was going to come in and direct the shit out of it and suddenly you have no idea what's happening, it's probably going to show in your writing (and it makes me wonder how much of it was written with Kim in mind and how usually that stuff doesn't matter but Kim is family so it totally does and how that can mess with even the best written words because if you're relying on someone to show what you mean because they know you and not because it's what you write and that person isn't there, it's just not going to work).
Apologies for Wall of Text.
no subject
I think (and this is all very tenuous) that the reason Sam had to kill Lilith--and no one else--was because he was Lucifer's vessel. I think the plan was for Lucifer to rise and use Sam's body as a vessel right then and there--and hopefully, Sam would be too broken/upset and/or too-far-gone-from-the-demon-blood to say no. But then Dean should up and ruined the plan.
Also, I don't think there was anything wrong with Sam killing Lilith. HE WAS TRYING TO SAVE THE WORLD. HE DIDN'T KNOW IT WOULD START THE APOCALYPSE. And YES, I DO WANT SAM TO FEEL GUILTY ABOUT THE WOMAN HE KILLED AND DRAINED OF BLOOD. IS THAT SO WRONG?
I agree with your thoughts on Jess and Chuck. Especially Chuck. YOU SHOULD WRITE THAT FIC. :DDDDDDD
no subject
no subject
Someone should write this, is all I'm saying.
THAT PERSON SHOULD BE YOU. I'M JUST SAYIN.
no subject
I hate season four SO MUCH ugh, but mainly because of what it could have been. And it could have been so fucking awesome if they stuck to Kripke's original plan of Sam rescuing Dean from Hell and turning into the Antichrist in the process. (Antichrist!Sam >>>>>>>>> Lucifer's vessel :P) And then Dean manages to stop Sam with the power of his love~~
Even with the introduction of the angels and the Michael vs. Lucifer thing... I feel like they could've rescued it all if they'd given us Michael!Dean and Lucifer!Sam at the end :(
/waaaaaaah
Whatever, season six looks like a chance to start off with a clean slate, so I'm gonna keep my fingers crossed and hope for the best~ *sigh*
no subject
This this this so much this. I will never not be bitter over that.
no subject
Hell, maybe Ruby was even there as a safeguard- to kill Lilith in case Sam chickened out last minute. Even LILITH was on the "kill Lilith" bandwagon.
Yeah, like: "Oh, hey, let's kill Lilith - but, errr, wait, Sam! Not you!"
*scratches head* And to be honest, I've never thought about Ruby's role in the convent, actually. But what you say makes a lot of sense. :)
And I actually think that a lot of people just enjoyed going "Ha! I knew it! Sam is sooooo EVOL!" just as a matter of principle because they like bashing Sam. *hugs Sammy tightly* Poor boy. No matter what he does, people will always find something to make him look bad and then go all "Boooo!" on him.
All Sammy has to say to this is:
'Cause he's A W E S O M E!
And people who talk on their cell phone in the line at the grocery store.
*RAAAAGGGE*
Haha, I love what you wrote about Chuck/Becky.
Becky: Please Chuck. I'm a fangirl. All I do is overanalyze texts. Dean just went to Lisa and Ben's because that's what Sam WANTED for him. They're just as codependent and in love as ever, and OMG SQUEE I can't believe you had their epic love for each other save the world! And, as long as they reunite in the next book... *pause* They will reunite in the next book, won't they?
And, uhm, this sounds familiar... *whistles*
And you do know that if you say "Someone should write this", people will only say "WRITE IT, COYOTEEEE!" instead? *g*
In conclusion: Fandom!Jess is awesome! Sam FTMFW! Season 6 reunion! Yay! Only two more months! \o/
Sorry that this comment got so long. o_O *cough*Oh, and: WRITE IT, COYOTEEEEE!
no subject
I like Jess, but yeah it's true she is more plot device than character. Her importance is what she represents not who she is.
Show fails when it comes to gender because it just kills everyone off for plot. Though I wonder if it was to give an end and a starting point. Though it that were the case I dislike it. I wish the female characters wouldn't be killed off as part of a plot device, especially when they start to see some development and fans actually start to like them/like them more.
I love what you say about Chuck and Becky!
no subject
I LOVE YOUR CHUCK/BECKY THEORY and agreed about Jess. I remember being totally unimpressed and unsurprised by the show's treatment of women in the pilot and if it's improved marginally since then - because at least most of the women have been given personal agency - then there's still so, so much fail. I feel like 5x13 retcons 4x03, which writes Mary back out of the game, which makes me really angry when I think about it too much. Not to mention Anna.
On that note, back to fanon with me, where the women are at the core of things and do not die just to motivate the Winchesters.
no subject
I get why some people blame him for Ruby, but she manipulated him for months and was all he had when Dean was in hell, so I can't really blame him for that either.
IDK, I think fandom just needs someone to bitch about and the last few seasons, unfortunately, it's often been Sam.
no subject
no subject
*puts chin in hands* *stares at captain america for a bit*
no subject
Also, I want a pony. >( *crosses arms across chest*
preachin' to the choir here, sweetheart. I've asked for one since I was 5 and STILL no dice :(
And your Chuck/Becky theory? I can take that for fact. Yep yep. But I can't get over the throwing-amulet-away thing, either. Sadface.
And O HAI. Carlos is RATHER pretty, isn't he? Yummmm
no subject
I think the reason it was a big deal that Sam killed Lilith was because he was the only one who could kill her the way he killed her, thus jump starting Judgment Day. I don't think anyone tries to act like killing Lilith was a bad thing, it's the demon blood drinking/siding with Ruby/thus releasing Lucifer from Hell thing that's a problem. I don't think, even when he found out what he did, that Sam ever regretted killing Lilith. Because that bitch took his brother. And OMG, Season 4!Sam, tears forever D:
As to the dead nurse--I think it was a very good move to give her as little characterization as they could. In fact, as is I feel she got too much. I love Sam Winchester to death and I empathize completely with his actions S4, but it if they had made that nurse any more of a real person to us, I think what he did would have been unforgivable. As is, the last time I watched the episode when it was a little more out of context for me and I could focus on her instead of what was coming, it struck me that Sam killed a human and drank them completely dry and I felt so, so dirty. I did not need to have that driven anymore home than it was. I like loving Sam Winchester, thank you very much.
I do love your Chuck/Becky theory there, though :)
And Captain America. Mmmmmmm.
no subject
So all the wincest fanservice in the latter half of season 5 is Chuck trying to woo Becky back.
DUDE, I LOVE YOU. THIS IS TRUFAX.