coyotesuspect: (stock: when there is nothing left to bur)
[personal profile] coyotesuspect

I interviewed today for a position on the editorial staff of the campus creative writing magazine. It was a group interview, and, as part of it, we were asked to look at two pieces and decide whether or not we would include them in the magazine. One was a poem, the other a photograph.

The poem just wasn't very good. The photograph, however, was interesting; it was of a pile of trash in a Chinese street  with people casually walking by. The title was "Public Health." It had bright, visually arresting colors, an interesting and thought provoking subject matter, and a great title. But the composition was jumbled and discordant, the cropping done poorly. It was, as one of the other candidates for the position put it, "like a point and shoot picture." If it had been cropped better, or taken at a better angle, it could have been a very nice piece.

One of the interviewers brought up the point that maybe the photographer had intended it to look that way. Maybe the composition was supposed to look like a point and shoot in order to say something about the chaoticness of a rapidly industrializing China, about the casualness with which the people in the photograph treated the pile of garbage.


Unfortunately, the interviewer brought this point up at the end of the interview, so we really didn't get the chance to discuss it in any depth. But it's an issue I'm definitely interested in, and one of I've actually been thinking about for the past couple weeks: how much weight should artistic or authorial intent have when deciding the worth of a piece? I'm not convinced intent should play all that important a part.

At the end of the day, whether "Public Health" was actually a point and shoot, or just taken to look as a point and shoot, it's still the same photograph. And unless the magazine plans to run a paragraph next to the photo with the photographer explaining why he or she chose to compose it in such a way, no one is going to know if the photo actually carries behind it that level of social commentary.  But that's beside the point, a photo shouldn't have to have an added paragraph of text to explain why and why and why. A piece of art- whether it's a painting or a photograph or a sculpture or a written piece-  must fundamentally stand on its own.

I discuss this issue often with [livejournal.com profile] familiardevil when it comes to fanmixes. There is a certain trend in making fanmixes to include anywhere between a sentence and entire paragraphs to explain why every song was chosen, and sometimes also to explain the symbolism behind the art of the mix. I understand the impulse behind this. I put a lot of thought into making mixes. Every song is there for a reason. The order of the songs is important. I try to achieve a unified sound. I pick certain colors and add certain details to the art to try to arrive at a specific effect or meaning. I know [livejournal.com profile] familiardevil  puts even more thought into her mixes.

As someone who creates things, I understand what a fraught process creation it is. We have these ideas in our heads, these beautiful images or stories or songs. And then we're tasked with getting that idea and translating it into the concrete, the understandable, the shareable. I don't think anyone succeeds to the degree with which they would like to. So of course we want to defend or explaon our pieces as best we can. Because we don't want them to reflect badly on us, but, more importantly, because we feel that the piece isn't getting a fair shake otherwise.

But I do not think we, as artists, as writers, as creators, should so vigorously defend and explain our creations. There's certainly some truth to the idea that art is often sadly misunderstood. I encounter this problem with poetry all the time, but I think the issue is that most people don't understand how to understand or interpret these pieces. But the "how" is not a question that should be answered by just having the artist or poet or whatever come and tell you everything about the piece. The "how" is a question that should be answered by giving people the skills to analyze the piece. Art shouldn't- art mustn't!- be something that is merely explained to people. It should be engaging; it should be a relationship. If art is merely explanation, and not interpretation, then art is dead.

Going deeper into the role of artistic intent, the interviewer brought up a piece hanging inside the Museum of Modern Art in Chicago. It is a large canvas, painted all white, and titled "1000 Days". Its title refers to how many days the artist  spent looking at the canvas and thinking about what to do with it, thinking about the potential behind it. I could just as easily submit a blank piece of lined notebook paper or a screenshot of an empty Microsoft Word document and call it art then. This is a piece of art that is only art when considered within the context of artistic intent. There was certainly no skill put into it.

To use a slightly different example, while at the Art Institute a couple weeks ago, I ran into a piece that was, quite literally, a large, somewhat misshapen circle drawn inside a gray square. I looked at the title to see if it would shed any light on this absolutely mystifying piece. The title was: "Distorted Circle inside Gray Square". And this is a piece that is hanging inside one of the most prestigious art museums in the United States.  I can't help but wonder how it was pitched to the museum; is its meaning found in its meaninglessness? Is it only art because it has such institutional weight behind it? Again, then, it becomes art only in context. In this case, that context is the art museum itself, i.e., because it is hanging in this very prestigious art museum, ergo it is art! This seems to me absurd. For the artist to call the piece art is audacious, and I am not sure we should reward an artist for sheer audacity.

Obviously this is a topic fraught with history. Much of the art we view today as being among the greats was treated in its own time with the same skepticism that I greet a circle inside a gray square. Who am I to say what is and isn't art? I'm not even trained in art in any meaningful sense! Yet, beginning in the late 1800s and early 1900s, with the advent of the "modern," there is definitely a tendency to putting the onus of a piece's worth upon the reaction a viewer has to it. Marcel Duchamp, of whom I'm not a fan, but whose philosophy and ideas had an important role upon mine in mid-adolescence, said, "The creative act is not performed by the artist alone; the spectator brings the work in contact with the external world by deciphering and interpreting its inner qualifications and thus adds his contribution to the creative act."

Wassily Kandinsky, of whom I am very much a fan, similarly stated about his piece "Improvisation No. 30 (Cannons)" that "the true contents are what the spectator experiences while under the effect of the forms and color combinations of the picture."

To a certain extent, I agree with these statements. However, just as I am loath to pin so much of a piece's worth on the artist's intent, I am equally loath to pin so much of its worth on how the audience reacts to it. I am not sure if Kandinsky's statement is translated (it very likely is), but the word "spectator" is of huge importance. Because that is what the viewer is! Merely a spectator! She does not act! She puts nothing at stake! Just as art that is too explained is dead, art that is without intent is meaningless. It is lazy.

There is, I think, two diverging trends in modern art. The one places a great amount of importance upon intent, and the other places all the import upon the audience's reaction. Thus, we end up with pieces like "1000 Days" in which the artistic intent becomes that the audience should project their own ideas onto a piece. Everything is potential; nothing is achieved.

Ultimately, the question of what makes an art have worth comes down to the question of what is the purpose of art. Should art be didactic? Inspiring? Thought provoking? Beautiful? Cathartic? To whom should art be these things? Should it speak to a specific audience, or should it aim for something more universal? Should it be technically good? Should it break boundaries or should it perfect the old rules? Should it be all of these things? None of these things? Which is more important: how the artist feels about the piece, or how the world reacts to the piece? Is art just there?

Another candidate at the interview noted that the term "good" is subjective, that a piece may be art to someone else even if it isn't to me. This is obviously true. Yet, I disagree with a definition of art that boils down to "anything which has ever been made by humans that at least one person gets enjoyment from". Or, rather, maybe that's all art, but it's certainly not all good art. Another candidate for the position said that, yes, maybe it's all art, but the best is what is most pleasing to the majority. This isn't satisfactory either. If good art is just something that is aesthetically pleasing to the most people, than Thomas Kinkade is the greatest artist of our time.

I think art should, at a minimum, have some amount of effort put behind it. I think good art- and this all applies to good writing as well- should clearly relate something, an experience or a feeling or an idea or a human life- anything, really, as long as something is related. I think art is a fragile concept, that exists somewhere between the artist's mind and the viewer's reaction to it. I think art should be technically proficient, and, if it is going to break the rules, should know what rules it is breaking and have a reason for it. Even if the artist doesn't get the chance to explain that reason. I don't think art has to be enjoyable, but I think it should inspire more than just confusion. And great art should be even more than all that. Great art should original, either in subject or execution, but preferably both. Great art should be more than just technically good; it should be virtuosic. Great art must say something that is specific, but it must speak in a way that is universal.

Art must speak. It must speak on its own, and it must speak with clarity. Art is an action and an expression and interpretation and a relationship. Otherwise, art becomes nothing more than something vaguely pleasant to be hung on the wall and just casually passed by.


 

Date: 2010-10-12 02:17 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] familiardevil.livejournal.com
This is interesting! *gets settled in to read*

Date: 2010-10-12 02:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] coyotesuspect.livejournal.com
This is what happens when you leave me alone for too long. I write two-thousand word treatises on Art instead of being legitimately productive.

Date: 2010-10-12 02:24 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] familiardevil.livejournal.com
With every beat of your heart you are legitmatetly productive.

I'm seriously cracking up at 'Distorted Circle inside Gray Square'. I hate abstract art, coyote. I know people would jump down my throat for saying it but I do. I don't see any meaning when I look at a canvas with paint splattered on it, or some shapes drawn onto it. I see something I would have made with paint when bored and thrown away. ~*~*~KANYE SHRUG~*~*~

Date: 2010-10-12 02:34 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] coyotesuspect.livejournal.com
You are too good to me. :*

I am torn on abstract art! Sometimes I am like, Really? A circle inside a square? And then I look at some of Kandinsky's stuff and am all ♥_♥ And I think a lot of abstract arts made important strides in terms of breaking boundaries and opening art up to larger, and giving more freedom to both artists and viewers. But then some of it just seems terribly, terribly self-indulgent.

Date: 2010-10-12 02:39 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] familiardevil.livejournal.com
But then some of it just seems terribly, terribly self-indulgent.

Yeah, that. I shouldn't have used the tern abstract, because Kandinsky is great. But it's stuff like what you saw, or just some smears of paint - LITERALLY JUST SMEARS OF PAINT. What the hell am I looking at? I almost feel like the art is trying to make you feel bad because you don't get it.

Date: 2010-10-12 02:38 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] familiardevil.livejournal.com
Anyway.

This was an interesting - and surprising - read! I guess this is what happens when I leave you alone. I get a jacket. You write about art. Now I have cookies. Neither of us have Nilmar. Your roommate is pantless.

I definitely agree about a lot of what you've said here, even if so much of it is general, and I think, I take for granted of being a common stream of thought. Because intent does mean a lot, I think. We've talked about it with my Danneel/Genevieve mix (YEAH I'M BRINGING UP RPF FEMMESLASH IN THIS POST). What would people get out of a fanmix with no story, no explanation, no plot behind it beyond a sentence or two in the summary? But could the music and the story is tells stand for itself? I think that is the biggest challenge of art you're willing to put out into the world - despite anything else it may be, is it strong enough to carry a connection between itself and the audience beyond 'why the fuck is there a circle in a square?'

But a big part of me does not believe art is necessarily for sharing. I feel like art is expression. You're right when you say art without intent is just lazy. It is. It's not even art, to me, though how you can value the intent of the artist, I don't know. But it doesn't have to make a connection to mean something. If I fill a whole page up with black crayon, and it means something to me, if it expresses something I feel - I would call that art. It doesn't have to be a shareable experience. Maybe I'm not well educated enough with different definitions of art. And I know I tend to place too much on the emotional rather than the technical. But I wouldn't say that a creation cannot be art because it cannot hold any connection to anyone else (or a great number of people). I do think that art needs to be about self-expression, and a lot of the times the greatest - and definitely the most important, if you ask me - connections we make are within ourselves. It's just that, art becomes great when it is able to connect to people.

And that is why art becomes such a risk. You're expressing how you feel without any certain knowledge that someone will see it in work. Or see anything else, for that matter. You didn't see anything in the Circle inside the Square. I probably wouldn't have either. Art is difficult to determine without intent. It should be able to stand for itself. But I don't think that's the most important part, or even the main goal of art. Art is about creation (to me at least). Whether or not people can share in that expression is what makes it worthy of being hung in public places where we are bound to have sex in in a few days because omg coyote I'm going to be on a plane in a few days.

Also isn't my new icon adorable?

Date: 2010-10-12 02:44 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] familiardevil.livejournal.com
Girl I don't know if this is even what you were getting at or is right at all. Bitch I feel like someone has punched me in the face. I probably punched myself in the face last night while sleeping. Everything hates me. Cookies are the only solace.

Living for a hopeful glance of Benny tomorrow.

Date: 2010-10-12 02:50 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] coyotesuspect.livejournal.com
Girl, everything you said was totally interesting and valid and IS MAKING ME THINK.

So is Carlos, bb. ):

Date: 2010-10-12 02:57 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] familiardevil.livejournal.com
I am glad you think so, good! Or if you're lying I'm happy that you love me enough to try and make me happy :-* (like Carlos does with Benny's cooking)

Omg right I was all ~*~they still have time together~*~
FUCKING FRANCE

Date: 2010-10-12 04:02 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] locknkey.livejournal.com
Art is about creation (to me at least). I agree with this so much!!!'


I tell my art students that for me art is as close to (insert God/higherpower of choice) as I can get. It's the essence of creating something and the act in itself is important - it carries weight.

Date: 2010-10-12 04:07 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] familiardevil.livejournal.com
I would agree. I think the most important element of art is not a connection to any audience, but a connection you make from yourself to the creation. Like I said, I think what makes art great is an ability to connect with people outside of yourself. It becomes something much bigger then, because it is influencing emotions that aren't your own. Changing the way people feel, through something as subtle as art can be, is incredibly powerful.

Date: 2010-10-14 05:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] coyotesuspect.livejournal.com
See, I think the difference between your Danneel/Genevieve mix and the paragraphs of text I complain about is that we've discussed your mix in terms of it being a fic-mix. Which is entirely different; the fic isn't an explanation of the mix, it's a part of it.

I think that is the biggest challenge of art you're willing to put out into the world - despite anything else it may be, is it strong enough to carry a connection between itself and the audience
I definitely agree with this.

On art as sharing: I don't think your black-crayon piece isn't art or isn't valuable. Obviously it has value to you, and that's important. But I think maybe there's a distinction between, hm, I guess shareable art and personal art? And I know the two are blurred, especially in modern art where personal motifs are used very heavily in "shareable" art.

I'm not sure if I agree that art is about creation. I think art-as-creation is important. I think it's a joyful, wonderful experience. But, and this is probably going to sound meaner than I intend it, but I think art purely as creation, or creation has being the most important part of art, is essentially art as masturbation. It's fun, it's great, but I don't want to see that on the wall of a museum, you know? There has to be more. I think art- shareable art- has to be bigger than that. It needs to say something or explore something or try at something beyond simple joy. Though maybe that's my fault for undervaluing joy.

But take, for example, Emily Dickinson. Or Kafka! None of their writing was intended to be shared. But their works still have intent and weight beyond the "pure joy of creating." Because their works are ways of exploring the world and making sense in it in a way that is intensely personal but still has value and meaning beyond their personalness.

Date: 2010-10-12 02:55 am (UTC)
ext_9369: mine - please don't take (Default)
From: [identity profile] auroraprimavera.livejournal.com
Ohhhh, you've just called out to the art historian in me! \o/

*reads*

Date: 2010-10-12 03:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] coyotesuspect.livejournal.com
Yay! Someone who is educated in the field! \o/

Date: 2010-10-12 03:05 am (UTC)
ext_9369: mine - please don't take (Default)
From: [identity profile] auroraprimavera.livejournal.com
Hah - Let's say that I am. >_>

It's been a few years now since I've actually "discussed" art so I'm very rusty.

Trying to form a good enough response right now :D

Date: 2010-10-12 03:09 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] raynemaiden.livejournal.com
I took art appreciation last semester and had a lot of thinky-thought discussions with myself along the same vein. I do not believe that we have the right to dictate what anyone defines as art. Anything made by a sentient being for the purpose of self expression is art. But good art, or great art, is another matter. For something to be good art I think it has to connect with people emotionally in some way. My professor went on and on about looking at art technically and to me that is missing the point. Art is there to be felt not analyzed. Obviously that is only my opinion but it is a very strong one. If I cannot connect with the art in some way, through color or texture or content then I do not consider it good art. Obviously someone out there may connect with something I do not. But it is really hard for me to see things like what you described and call it good art. It has every right to be called art and to exist as such. And I have every right to call it bad art. Whether it should be held up and glorified at a public museum as an important piece of art... well I suppose that is a debate with no end and no answer just more opinions.

Date: 2010-10-14 05:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] coyotesuspect.livejournal.com
I was talking about this with [Bad username or site: @ livejournal.com] above, and I think maybe a distinction between personal art and shareable art, or, in other words, art that is just created for personal self-expression and art that is intended to be viewed and consumed publicly. Obviously the two are blurred, but I think it's a good working structure to have this conversation.

Anyway! I agree that people shouldn't crack down on personal art. I also agree that it's important for art to emotionally connect. But I'm not sure if emotional resonance is my criterion for whether or not art is good. Because that's such a subjective assessment. Obviously all evaluations of worth of anything are in some way subjective, but I think there need to be at least some standards in which all works can be evaluated equally.

Whether or not something a piece resonates with me emotionally is certainly important to whether or not I like it or would be willing to hang it on my wall. But I also think we have to remove ourselves and analyze these things technically. And the same holds true for writing or music. Tastes differ, but I can still read something I dislike but recognize it as good writing.

Date: 2010-10-12 03:22 am (UTC)
ext_9369: mine - please don't take (Default)
From: [identity profile] auroraprimavera.livejournal.com
But that's beside the point, a photo shouldn't have to have an added paragraph of text to explain why and why and why. A piece of art- whether it's a painting or a photograph or a sculpture or a written piece- must fundamentally stand on its own.

It very well should. There are some pieces, regardless of their medium, that when you look at them all you can think is: Wow, that's. Wow.

And they've done their job.

I actually find it completely irritating when a piece has tons of explanation going along with it. Whenever I make graphics for a story, I just give a quick explanation on why I chose the images I did and that's it. I don't go into long winded details of colors, background, etc. I let my audience pick those things out and go with it. That's what art is supposed to do.


Art shouldn't- art mustn't!- be something that is merely explained to people. It should be engaging; it should be a relationship. If art is merely explanation, and not interpretation, then art is dead.

Unfortunately there are those that absolutely need art explained to them, no matter the genre or medium. My mother is one of those people. I never to go museums with her because she gets frustrated at what she's sees. I always tell her, "It's different for everyone. You have to interepret it your own wya. I can't tell you what it should mean to you."


It is a large canvas, painted all white, and titled "1000 Days"...This is a piece of art that is only art when considered within the context of artistic intent. There was certainly no skill put into it.

Ugh. I hate, hate, hate, hate art like this. Just. Ugh. To me the artist that pulls shit like that off is the kind of person that is trying just too hard to be "deep" and have meaning put onto something that just doesn't have it.


...a large, somewhat misshapen circle drawn inside a gray square. I looked at the title to see if it would shed any light on this absolutely mystifying piece. The title was: "Distorted Circle inside Gray Square".

Ditto! Ugh.


Should art be didactic? Inspiring? Thought provoking? Beautiful? Cathartic? To whom should art be these things? Should it speak to a specific audience, or should it aim for something more universal? Should it be technically good? Should it break boundaries or should it perfect the old rules? Should it be all of these things? None of these things? Which is more important: how the artist feels about the piece, or how the world reacts to the piece? Is art just there?

Art should be all of these, none of these, some of these and maybe even more than these. There's no easy way to say, honestly. Art is what art is to you and how you choose to see it. Sometimes are is just there and we don't really take notice of it. And sometimes it's so in your face that you can't help but see it and take it in and go: Wow, so this is art.


I think art should, at a minimum, have some amount of effort put behind it. I think good art- and this all applies to good writing as well- should clearly relate something, an experience or a feeling or an idea or a human life- anything, really, as long as something is related.

It certainly should. Otherwise, to me, it isn't art at all but a slapdack job at throwing things together.


Art must speak. It must speak on its own, and it must speak with clarity. Art is an action and an expression and interpretation and a relationship. Otherwise, art becomes nothing more than something vaguely pleasant to be hung on the wall and just casually passed by.

Yup.


Basically I went through and just commented on some of the things you said. Like I said earlier - I'm very rusty when it comes to discussing art. Er - I hope it all made sense. Ish?

Date: 2010-10-12 03:41 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zempasuchil.livejournal.com
Thomas Kinkade is so not aesthetically pleasing D: I barf at thomas kinkade. those colors are just lurid. those things, just boring. seriously, never been appealing to me, I can't believe there are whole stores in shopping malls dedicated to selling his prints or whatever.

anyway.

There is, I think, two diverging trends in modern art. The one places a great amount of importance upon intent, and the other places all the import upon the audience's reaction. Thus, we end up with pieces like "1000 Days" in which the artistic intent becomes that the audience should project their own ideas onto a piece. Everything is potential; nothing is achieved.

This obviously hits the nail on the head. I'm so conflicted about these things; on one hand as a creator I'm like, INTENT OMG INTENT as I am a control freak; on the other hand, I love erasure poetry. I love remixing stuff. I love deconstructionalism. I think that once art leaves an artist's hands it's all up to the audience to care, to think, to contextualize and interpret; I also think an artist can create fifty kajillion different versions if she'd like, but it doesn't mean they're going to be considered like the first one. So, art may intend all it wants, but there is no great art without anyone to appreciate it. (Which brings up an interesting question about the value of art outside its culture. Is there art that transcends culture in its appreciate-able aesthetic? hm!)

I do wonder how an artist shows that he/she knows the rules before he/she breaks them in the piece - how do we judge the difference in appearance between a piece that is expertly breaking rules and one that is inexpertly doing it? Is there some distinguishable referencing the rules in their breaking? Is it only sometimes communicated? Is it dependent on the audience's knowledge of the rules? (It must be! Come to think, I do know that taking a crazy Visual Language doing-art class from a crazy-artist grad student taught me a whole lot about art and made me appreciate so much more of what before I would've gone, Hey, that's a grey circle on a grey background. Maybe there's texture. Maybe there's imperfection in the circle's shape or color. Abstract stuff seems to be taking art to its basic principles and bending the assumptions/rules there, and I like bending fundamentals. ... Maybe I'm just easily brainwashed.)

Great art must say something that is specific, but it must speak in a way that is universal.

:DDD This is a beautifully pithy way of putting that! And I really, really like it. Again, it makes me wonder about the limits of universal - if you can have Western great art and Eastern great art that, once you take it out of the context of its movement in history in culture/society, loses its greatness, or even its identification as art.

But I'm totally down with the specific part, I don't have any questions about that :))

This is a sweet essay. I am going to bookmark it and think about it some. :)

Date: 2010-10-14 06:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] coyotesuspect.livejournal.com
On culture! In my Intro to Religious Studies class this morning my professor said that we need to be careful about comparing rituals from a religion we're unfamiliar with to a religion we're familiar with, or, as he phrased it, "Just because they sprinkle water on something, doesn't mean it's baptism."

Which, of course, is a completely obvious point, but it made me think, if I'm reading a book, and someone gets wet, I think, "Oh! Baptism!" That's how I've been trained. And if the author is writing in the Euro-Christian tradition or however we want to phrase it, then that's a fair analysis to make. But what if they're writing outside of that tradition? I have no idea how to analyze that. I may still be able to appreciate the book in terms of writing ability or the enjoyment I get from the story, but I won't have the tools to grasp the deeper meanings or themes. Because they're using an entirely different idiom from me.

So! I guess, to answer your question, I think people can appreciate art from outside their culture, they just won't necessarily be able to understand it in a lot of ways. But they can still get something from it. I can still wander through the Indian art section of the Art Institute and be awed by the obvious thought, creativity, talent, and meaning these pieces have been imbued with. Even if I can't break it down.

Also, I understand what you mean by abstract art being in a lot of ways about bending the fundamentals. And I certainly think there's value in bending the fundamentals, and that art- and by extension, humanity- gains from this constant re-examination of what is good and what is fundamental and what are The Rules, anyway? However! That still doesn't mean there is anything more the circle in the square beyond it being a circle inside a square, even if it is a circle with texture. And it just seems to be like we've been doing this re-examination of these fundamentals for well over 50 years. It's not new anymore. Picasso worked in the first part of the 20th century! If we're going to do something new, then do something new! Or do something old in a new way.

And you've hit the nail on the head in terms of intent versus audience. I was actually thinking about the erasure poetry you told me about while writing this, but wasn't sure how to work it in. And fanfiction itself is, fundamentally, a subversion of the creator's intent by the audience. Fanmedia is the manifestation of this space in which the relationship between artistic intent and audience interpretation is acted out.

On the rules! [Bad username or site: @ livejournal.com] raised an extremely important point that relying on the rules so much shuts out people without privilege from interacting in this artistic. Which, I realized, she's completely right. But I still think the rules, and technical evaluations and analysis of any shared work is hugely important, but I'm not sure how to negotiate the value of the rules and lack of access to knowing the rules.

Heh. Thanks. /o\

Date: 2010-10-14 06:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] coyotesuspect.livejournal.com
Also, continuing the discussion of culture: don't these same ideas apply to mediums which we're not trained in? I in no way have the ability to analyze modern dance. I can't understand the meaning of it. But I have seen dance routines that have reduced me to tears in terms of beauty. So I think there can be appreciation and resonance without understanding.
Edited Date: 2010-10-14 06:19 pm (UTC)

Date: 2010-10-12 03:57 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] locknkey.livejournal.com
As an art major, I have many thinky thoughts about all of this. And not enough time to or space to get it all down here.

I think Duchamp is an excellent illustration for the kind of thinking that goes into a piece like "1000 days." The thing with modern art, unlike historical art is that it not only functions as art, but it is reflection of the times it exists in - unlike historical pieces modern art is simultaneously existing in the era it is being created in. It has not had the chance to age and we cannot know or even comprehend what "1000 days" might reflect upon modern art. And, I'm not really saying this well, but modern art has the contextual luxury of the cumulative experiences of the living. I think for many pieces that luxury will not stand the test of time.

The question what is art is discussed ad nauseum in art history classes without a real answer ever being provided. Over many year - too many - I've come up with my own definition. And, let's say with some resentment - the art I make is not considered nearly edgy enough by many - it's a bit too happy and pretty to really be avant garde. On the other hand, only in the most recent decades are works like quilts and chairs being considered art rather then craft. That being said, to me, art at it's most base must communicate, it should involve the mastery of craft, it should be innovative, it should be provoking either intellectually or emotionally, preferably both. It can be political or beautiful and ultimately whether it is any of these things will vary from viewer to viewer. It is certainly not my place to tell the woman with a thousand chicken reproductions in her home that they are not art - in fact it might be said that the collection itself is a creative and artful expression. To broaden the definition even further is the combustible engine art, or the quadratic equation art? The only sure answer I have is my own and no amount of currency or acclaim will make something art if I, the viewer, can't see it/am not touched/moved by it. This is in a way a direct argument of maybe that's all art, but it's certainly not all good art. It's not that I disagree in theory. We can't put every child's crayon scribble in a museum and say it's art, but often the crayon scribbles are more joyful and expressive than what pros turn out. Like anything else - think maybe the best you can hope for is that form of popular agreement that ultimately leaves many good works unrecognized ( I don't think it's a leap to to compare the idea to reccing fanfiction and that there is an intersectionality in the art world with what we see in fandom - what is considered artistic has something to do with merit, but it is also a function of the currency of friendship/popularity/timing/opportunity that have little to do with the actual work.)

Even historically it can be argued that what is art is still filtered through the eyes of the society writing the definitions. There are also questions of cultural norms and economics that play an enormous part in what someone/society considers art.

if it is going to break the rules, should know what rules it is breaking and have a reason for it In principal I agree with this, but then you are saying that only the trained have a chance to create art, which ignores the entire tradition of marginal, folk/outsider art, which often will be practitioners w/o privilege - uneducated, PoC, woman, etc.

Date: 2010-10-12 03:57 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] locknkey.livejournal.com
I could make the argument (although I actually tend to agree with your assessment) that the piece, "1000 days" has already served an artistic purpose. It has made you think and question and communicate with others about it's very nature. :) I think a similar thought can be applied to the point and shoot photograph - maybe in the use of that technique - minus any explanation - the "artist" used it to jar you into thinking about how common the scene was, how everyday and normal, wanted that effect rather than desiring an aesthetic view. Maybe if all the viewer saw was the lack of pretty, then the fault was in the viewer? I'm not saying that is the case, but it's another way of looking at the question. There is plenty of art that i don't get much from and much that moves me at such a visceral level I can't say that it was the color/composition or any design aesthetic that played a part. This is what I always hope for - that instant heartfelt reaction that makes the viewer feel (whether that is squee or shock or joy or...) - I'd much prefer that to an intellectual rationalization or analysis, but that is my preference.

Maybe we aren't asking the right questions. Maybe the question isn't what is art? or what is good art? but what is the importance or art in the continuum of human experience and how do we encourage rather than than crush it's continued expression. I feel too often that question gets mostly ignored. In the search for "good art" we too often tell the very young in our society to stop trying - they'll never be good enough and that if they can't be good enough, any lesser expression isn't worthy.

As a someone who has taught art extensively, I'm a big fan of "doing." Anyone can be better by doing, rules and education aside. Picasso painted 12-14 hours a day, seven days a week. I've seen what passion can create even in the untrained.

I plan on going back in the next year or so for my MFA. Like some on-line friends are being asked to do in pursuing a similar degree in writing, I will undoubtedly be asked to compromise my aesthetic. Unfortunately grants, fellowships, degrees, awards, patronages and checks are not given in vacuums and tailoring your work to the givers is often the definition of what is good art.

I think it's an important question and one we have to keep asking and discussing, especially as artist. I suspect that the answers will continue to change both personally and socially as time progresses. Personally as my experience and education changes – my answers to this change and ultimately I think it makes me a better artist.

Date: 2010-10-12 04:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] coyotesuspect.livejournal.com
Very briefly, because I'm reading for class right now, I just want to thank you for writing this:

if it is going to break the rules, should know what rules it is breaking and have a reason for it In principal I agree with this, but then you are saying that only the trained have a chance to create art, which ignores the entire tradition of marginal, folk/outsider art, which often will be practitioners w/o privilege - uneducated, PoC, woman, etc.

Because that was something I was kind of vaguely thinking about when I wrote that line- that some people don't know the rules- but I wasn't quite able to grasp it. So thank you for putting it into graspable terms for me, and now I'll have to reconsider my position. Because I do think the Rules are important, but I can also only say that speaking from a position of privilege as someone who knows the Rules.
Edited Date: 2010-10-12 04:06 am (UTC)

Date: 2010-10-12 05:10 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] locknkey.livejournal.com
First if I sounded - IDK, judgey - totally not meant that way. :)

Also girl of privileged here. :) And, I taught the rules (public speaking) and very much from the university perspective of you gotta know them to break them. Twenty years later I've had more time to assimilate other ideas and realize that "the rules" is one approach and that those rules are subject to change - (i.e. the first job out of college and the boss said, "we don't do it that way here and handed me a manual of the new rules.") Also the year I've spent in fandom has been an entire education on privilege and what it means and I'm still learning.

As for art (visual and otherwise) amazing things can come from a lot of different places. I think education (the rules) is important, but it's only one tool in the belt and can often lead to stifling creativity rather than encouraging it.
Edited Date: 2010-10-12 05:11 am (UTC)

Date: 2010-10-12 04:01 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] write-light.livejournal.com
I tend to agree with you about a lot of what gets lumped into modernism, especially abstract minimalism that becomes about what you can be snookered into making it become.

I think similar arguments can and have been made about each of the (purposes? effects?) you list - should art be didactic? / thought-provoking? / beautiful? /etc. There are those who would say it must be one and only one, or not this/that one.

But *effort* is hard to define. Is suffering 'effort'? Is desire 'effort'? Did Gauguin's longings for "noble island women" and his eventual syphilis make it art, or better than another artist X? Or is it that he was depicting something? Or is it that *I* can't stop looking at it and feeling a swirl of emotions that no other painter gives me?

One of the rare times I've felt like I had art in my hands was when I found THIS - anonymously taped to a telephone pole. I've kept it for over 20 years.

It also occurs to me as I write this that art and craft are different. If I met the artist who did the above-linked piece, I'd smile and say "I get it. I like it." I don't want to know more. But when I meet some artists, I do want to know more - about how they came upon the idea, brought it to life, etc. I'm not questioning their art; rather, I want to know about their craft. As a writer, I LOVE to talk about the ins and outs, the how's and why's, but that's not inspiration, that's the legwork to bring inspiration to life.

As for mixes, when I make a mix, it reflects my process of creating fic and generating story ideas. The songs enhance certain areas of the story and the experience - if you wish them to, or by learning about what I think of them. It's like listening to the soundtrack vs. listening to the composer talk about the soundtrack - the latter isn't detrimental, just a different look that is more about craft than art. I want you to see what I see in the music, and that isn't art, that's instruction and more grandiosely, self-revelation. If you get something else from listening to those songs in that order, great, but I don't want you to be left wondering why the hell a song was included - nor are you forced to read the notes I leave - they can be ignored as easily as a small sign by a work of art in a museum, can't they? (sorry that last bit reads as pissy, but I'm totally not - this is a fascinating topic!)

ETA: I'm not using 'craft' in the way [livejournal.com profile] locknkey does. I'm thinking of the *doing* of art rather as opposed to the ideas it contains.
Edited Date: 2010-10-12 04:04 am (UTC)

extra note:

Date: 2010-10-12 04:17 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] familiardevil.livejournal.com
But that's beside the point, a photo shouldn't have to have an added paragraph of text to explain why and why and why. A piece of art- whether it's a painting or a photograph or a sculpture or a written piece- must fundamentally stand on its own.

I think something can be said about art being challenging though. Not everything complicated is good, but I like art that tries to make you think and see it from the creator's perspective. Art shouldn't always be simple, it shouldn't always be obvious. Some of the best kinds of things in life are the things that make you think. What does it say? What does it mean? I think art, if expected to have a meaning outside sole self-expression, should be able to stand on its own, but sometimes it can do that and have more to it than a quick, simple answer.

Re: extra note:

Date: 2010-10-14 06:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] coyotesuspect.livejournal.com
Oh, I definitely agree. That's a large part of why I love poetry so much- because it's so challenging. But I don't think being challenging and being able to stand on its own are opposed ideas. Once I break a poem down, I can understand it. But I have to have the tools with which to analyze it. And that applies to all forms of expression.

Date: 2010-10-12 04:49 am (UTC)
ext_28384: (stock: alphabet love)
From: [identity profile] velvetine01.livejournal.com
how much weight should artistic or authorial intent have when deciding the worth of a piece? I'm not convinced intent should play all that important a part.
Hah, you could go on forever. You're at UChicago, right? I took a class that studied a bunch of Chicago profs/critics and focussed on New Criticism, where the question of intent features prominently. There's a bunch of awesome and interesting material I can point you toward if you'd like. :) (There's also a lot about that you try to discuss in your paragraph about 'good' art--unfortunately, there can never really be a final answer to either of these questions.)

Also, music had a big debate at the beginning of the 20th century when composers would hand out pamphlets containing stories, explaining what the 'plot' of the symphony was. Most composers felt that music should be sufficient in itself to incite any emotions the composer wanted, but those who believed in program music argued that the audience would never understand all the music and its complexities without something to guide them through. I tend to believe that one need not write a statement of intent for their art, but I have to admit that at times the audience can be completely lost without one. Perhaps that piece of art would've been amazing if they could frame it in a certain context but without a bit of help can never quite reach that point, and that make me think that maybe not all explanations are bad/unnecessary. IDK, I am just rambling at this point.

Anyway, you are very eloquent. I love this post.

Date: 2010-10-12 01:38 pm (UTC)
ext_3554: dream wolf (Default)
From: [identity profile] keerawa.livejournal.com
Hmmm. I'd say that art is an act of creation and expression. It can even be a form of communication, of persuasion. But the path from creator to audience is a dark and twisted one, and there's no guarantee that the meaning any given audience takes from it is the one the creator intended.

As a writer, I'm fine with that. I'm always FASCINATED to hear feedback about what people take from my writing of vids. There's one Highlander vid in particular where many watchers created an entire AU that I never even considered.

As an audience member, a reader, I don't generally give a damn about authorial or artistc intent. However, last time I went to a museum, I found myself restlessly searching for a feedback button next to the pieces I really enjoyed. *facepalms*

Date: 2010-10-12 06:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ai-kizu.livejournal.com
I am not a big fan of some contemporary art because it feels so pointless. In the Tate Modern there is this blank blue canvas and it makes me rage so much.

I think that art really shouldn't have a paragraph explaining it unless it is in relation to the time or who is in the piece. As is the case with a lot of Renaissance art. I think art should have some sort of impact depending on what it is. It won't be the same for everyone but it should draw something out. Some of my favourite pieces are the ones that have made me stop.

I think fanmixes are a bit different because apart from the cover art it is primarily drawn from words. In which case the usage of lyrics or additional words are important in engaging the reader and putting across the person's intention.

Date: 2010-10-18 10:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] animus-wyrmis.livejournal.com
Hrm. I guess I would say that I think art is in the eye of both the creator and the viewer--I have pieces I've never shown anyone but I wouldn't say they start being art only when I show them to someone.

But I don't think effort changes anything either, because all you have to go on is the piece itself--does it change the piece if I worked for five minutes on mine while yours is a life's work?

Also I don't think that art has to be able to stand on its own. Sequels and prequels frequently don't; hell, fanfic frequently doesn't. And I think that's okay, because art also frequently has an implied/ideal audience, and for that audience there is a common understanding. I guess all written things have that to some extent because we assume that the audience will understand our words, our slang, our use of punctuation. But like, where is the line between a paragraph explaining the painting and needing to watch six seasons of SPN to get a fic to deconstructing a trope in a novel, right? To some extent art never stands alone.

Date: 2010-10-18 10:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] coyotesuspect.livejournal.com
*will reply to this in depth later*

It's 5:23. Do you know where your moocher second-year is?

(Hint: I'm making tea.)

Date: 2010-10-19 04:51 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] animus-wyrmis.livejournal.com
More importantly, it's almost midnight, I could be anywhere, why are you not in the apartment? Surely you need more tea!

Date: 2010-10-19 05:07 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] coyotesuspect.livejournal.com
You shouldn't encourage me.

Also, I was hanging out in one of those alcoves outside B&N looking like a homeless person.

Date: 2010-10-19 05:12 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] coyotesuspect.livejournal.com
It was actually quite nice! Very quiet and dark and secluded.

Date: 2010-10-19 05:13 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] animus-wyrmis.livejournal.com
You're super sketchy. Even more sketchy since we are going out or have broken up or whatever it is.

Date: 2010-10-19 05:18 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] coyotesuspect.livejournal.com
You're the one who is dating or just broke up with a sketchy person. What does that say about YOU?

But really, it's nice sometimes to get out of the building and away from people.

Date: 2010-10-19 05:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] animus-wyrmis.livejournal.com
That I was enchanted by your evil witchcraft?

Date: 2010-10-19 05:20 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] coyotesuspect.livejournal.com
More like enchanted by my wit and beauty.

Date: 2010-10-19 05:21 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] animus-wyrmis.livejournal.com
No, I think it was your witchcraft. Or possibly your tea-making skills.

Date: 2010-10-19 05:24 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] coyotesuspect.livejournal.com
I can understand why someone would fall in love with me for my tea-making skills. They're quite excellent.

Date: 2010-10-19 05:26 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] animus-wyrmis.livejournal.com
Also I have an interview tomorrow BUT the person interviewing me has not gotten back to me to say she has the right number aaaagh.

Date: 2010-10-19 05:29 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] coyotesuspect.livejournal.com
What are you being interviewed for?

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