When the war is over...
Nov. 20th, 2009 12:02 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
coyotesuspect
I had some (very, very) brief musings about the Winchester Chain of Sacrifice (and Sam's role in it).
No, this is not another rant about Last Night. That's gonna be up this evening. (You think I'm kidding)
Okay, regarding sacrifice. It's pretty typical of the whole epic, hero's journey that secondary characters sacrifice themselves for the hero, so that the hero may eventually sacrifice himself for everybody. (See: Harry Potter).
On Supernatural, we have all kinds of sacrifices, but I'm mainly interested in the Winchester ones. John sacrifices himself for Dean. Dean sacrifices himself for Sam. And poor Sam, try as he might, isn't given the chance to sacrifice himself for Dean. Apparently sacrifice is a one way street.
So, this wouldn't bode well for Sam's future- obviously all these sacrifices happened so Sam could eventually sacrifice himself! Except, what about Mary?
Mary's was the original sacrifice; she sacrificed to save John. But she didn't sacrifice her life; she sacrificed Sam.
Obviously, she didn't do it in so many words. That YED was gonna be coming back to collect her child was more understood than explicit (if I recall correctly; it's been some time since I've seen the episode). And it's always seemed to me to be something of a Rumpelstiltskin type deal.
So what does this mean? If Sam is a sacrifice, is he capable of sacrificing himself? Is Kripke gonna do some horrible "balance" shit like have Sam sacrifice himself for selfless reasons, as opposed to Mary sacrificing Sam for selfish (albeit completely understandable) reasons? I don't think Show will kill off Sam and not Dean, but I am worried that Sam will be called upon to make some kind of final, ultimate sacrifice.
What think you guys?
Mary--(Sam)-->John--(life)-->Dean--(life)-->Sam--(???)-->(???)
On Supernatural, we have all kinds of sacrifices, but I'm mainly interested in the Winchester ones. John sacrifices himself for Dean. Dean sacrifices himself for Sam. And poor Sam, try as he might, isn't given the chance to sacrifice himself for Dean. Apparently sacrifice is a one way street.
So, this wouldn't bode well for Sam's future- obviously all these sacrifices happened so Sam could eventually sacrifice himself! Except, what about Mary?
Mary's was the original sacrifice; she sacrificed to save John. But she didn't sacrifice her life; she sacrificed Sam.
Obviously, she didn't do it in so many words. That YED was gonna be coming back to collect her child was more understood than explicit (if I recall correctly; it's been some time since I've seen the episode). And it's always seemed to me to be something of a Rumpelstiltskin type deal.
So what does this mean? If Sam is a sacrifice, is he capable of sacrificing himself? Is Kripke gonna do some horrible "balance" shit like have Sam sacrifice himself for selfless reasons, as opposed to Mary sacrificing Sam for selfish (albeit completely understandable) reasons? I don't think Show will kill off Sam and not Dean, but I am worried that Sam will be called upon to make some kind of final, ultimate sacrifice.
What think you guys?
Mary--(Sam)-->John--(life)-->Dean--(life)-->Sam--(???)-->(???)
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2009-11-20 06:27 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-11-20 06:35 pm (UTC)I think it's pretty unlikely they will go there but if they would it would probably be God's Plan or something. Sam has to show himself worthy and if he does that saves the world...
Like Dean's life vs. the world and which will Sam choose?
But he wouldn't be able to do the right thing, now would he? Because no matter what, Sam chooses Dean (he always will. He chooses to be selfish.
Huh. That would actually make a cool ending (at least my sick brain thinks so *headdesk*). Sam choosing Dean and everything ending because of that.
Also, Winchester Beauty Salon? YOU WIN THE WHOLE FUCKING WORLD! xD
Ehm, I just reread this and realized that it doesn't really make any sense. Sorry for that... ^^°°
no subject
Date: 2009-11-20 06:38 pm (UTC)Because apparently my brain hears "Selfish Sam" and "Sacrifising" and immediatley jumps to Dean. *drop*
no subject
Date: 2009-11-20 06:53 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-11-20 07:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-11-20 07:39 pm (UTC)About Sam, I actually have this really horrible theory. If this is the last season, then maybe for the end, Sam will say yes to Lucifer and then take control of his body back from him just long enough to kill himself, which would kill Lucifer as well. It'll be Sammy sacrificing himself. And it fits the whole redemption=death thing. I really hope it doesn't happen though because it breaks my heart to just think about it.
no subject
Date: 2009-11-20 07:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-11-20 07:58 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-11-20 08:02 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-11-20 08:12 pm (UTC)I mean, technically, if she had followed YED's instruction back then that he wanted just five minutes uninterrupted, she would be alive. Except she tried to step in right there. I know, I know, as a mother she's going to do these things, I'm not discounting any of this, just stating the facts.
no subject
Date: 2009-11-20 08:49 pm (UTC)Mary--(Sam)-->John--(life)-->Dean--(life)-->Sam--(???)-->PROFIT.
I couldn't help it. Too much Southpark in my youth.
ETA: And on Mary's deal--She also didn't *actaully* know what she was agreeeing to. He said she had to let him into the house, he didn't say anything abut her having children at the time and if she'd had a bit more time to think about it she may have figured it out, but she was not in a good place mentally. That's how I'm taking it, at least, though I still call it a very selfish sacrifice.
no subject
Date: 2009-11-20 09:44 pm (UTC)I hope you don't mind me butting in, but this is similar to a very common fairy tale trope. Man is away from home, man gets attacked by monster, man begs for his life, monster cuts man a deal. "1 (or 5 or 10 or whatever number) year later, bring me what's in your house now that wasn't there when you left" (sorry, I don't have the exact phrasing, and this is my approximation of a translation from a Russian sentence). Man agrees, because it's probably something of value his wife's bought in his absence, or maybe a cow that's calved, or whatnot. What he, of course, never guesses at is that his wife was pregnant when he left and has given birth. Cue (usually exceptional) child setting off to be raised by the monster and eventually slay it.
no subject
Date: 2009-11-20 09:46 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-11-20 10:42 pm (UTC)Maybe Sam will get his chance to sacrifice himself for Dean, or even the world I don't know, I hope it's something epic lol
no subject
Date: 2009-11-20 11:56 pm (UTC)And Winchester Beauty Salon...this is MADE OF AWESOME!
no subject
Date: 2009-11-21 12:18 am (UTC)I think Sam'll have to die to save the world. But in no way do I think he'll go out alone. AND NOR SHOULD HE. BOYFRIENDS HOLD HANDS INTO THE UNDERWORLD, DEAN!
no subject
Date: 2009-11-21 12:36 am (UTC)WINCHESTER BEAUTY SALON \o/
no subject
Date: 2009-11-21 07:11 am (UTC)I think we're trying to move away from that dynamic and allow him to grow into a spot as Dean's equal (not that I fault either one of them for it having taken this long), so if there is sacrifice on the show, I think it would be together. I doubt (and by doubt I mean "hope with everything in me") that we're going to be seeing more of the Winchesters sacrificing themselves in big, life changing ways for each other.
no subject
Date: 2009-11-21 07:12 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-11-21 07:12 pm (UTC)...I would kind of like that too. >>
no subject
Date: 2009-11-21 07:13 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-11-21 07:16 pm (UTC)Although Sam was technically the sacrificed item, he was also the product of a sacrifice
Hm. That is an interesting way of seeing it though. *thinks some more*
no subject
Date: 2009-11-21 07:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-11-21 07:17 pm (UTC)And. D: That is a horrible theory. *whimpers*
no subject
Date: 2009-11-21 07:18 pm (UTC)MAYBE EVERYTHING WILL BE CUPCAKES AND RAINBOW AND GAY SEX. Y/Y?
no subject
Date: 2009-11-21 07:21 pm (UTC)But, I mean. Sam already is Harry-figure. Mother died over his crib right around Halloween, trying to save him from an evil, almost immortal villain who transferred special powers to him, etc etc.
Ahaha, I didn't know that was from South Park!
Like I said, it has been a while since I've seen it, but I feel like there was some implication that this was going to involve her child. Hmmm.
Also: WINCHESTER BEAUTY SALON: WHAT IS CASTIEL'S ROLE IN IT?
no subject
Date: 2009-11-21 07:22 pm (UTC)I would be okay if they both died, I think.
BOYFRIENDS HOLD HANDS INTO THE UNDERWORLD, DEAN!
AND SUCK EACH OTHERS' COCKS.
no subject
Date: 2009-11-21 07:24 pm (UTC)I really want it to end with them dying. I just can't imagine another end for them that would work.
WELL, THEY CAN HOLD HANDS AND SUCK COCK AT THE SAME TIME, GAWD
no subject
Date: 2009-11-21 07:25 pm (UTC)ISN'T IT? POST APOCALYPSE BEAUTY SALON SHENANIGANS FOR THE WIN.
no subject
Date: 2009-11-21 07:26 pm (UTC)I... really want them to live and continue hunting. How likely do you think it is they'll die considering the interview you posted last night?
I APPROVE OF THIS PLAN.
no subject
Date: 2009-11-21 07:27 pm (UTC)Angels are half-Asian, didn'tchaknow?
no subject
Date: 2009-11-21 07:28 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-11-21 07:28 pm (UTC)I don't know how they'd die, but I just feel like, for me, it'd be the right ending for them. Going out together as brothers, etc.
no subject
Date: 2009-11-21 07:30 pm (UTC)DEAN BECOMES THE FINEST HAIRDRESSER IN ALL THE LAND! SAM LOOKS ON, SMILING FONDLY, AND TAKES CARE OF THE MONEY.
no subject
Date: 2009-11-21 07:35 pm (UTC)And then you consider that Sam has, since about s3, been (often in visual ways) hinted at being a Christ-figure, (i.e., shots of him looking like he's being crucified). And since Sam's narrative is ultimately one of redemption and maturity, it isn't completely insane to think that he might end up sacrificing himself to save the world.
Um. Yeah. I'm done.
no subject
Date: 2009-11-21 10:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-11-21 11:20 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-11-21 11:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-11-22 05:03 am (UTC)LMAO! TOTALLY!
no subject
Date: 2009-11-22 05:07 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-11-22 07:12 pm (UTC)