When the war is over...

[coyotesuspect]

I had some (very, very) brief musings about the Winchester Chain of Sacrifice (and Sam's role in it).

No, this is not another rant about Last Night. That's gonna be up this evening. (You think I'm kidding)

Okay, regarding sacrifice. It's pretty typical of the whole epic, hero's journey that secondary characters sacrifice themselves for the hero, so that the hero may eventually sacrifice himself for everybody. (See: Harry Potter).

On Supernatural, we have all kinds of sacrifices, but I'm mainly interested in the Winchester ones. John sacrifices himself for Dean. Dean sacrifices himself for Sam. And poor Sam, try as he might, isn't given the chance to sacrifice himself for Dean. Apparently sacrifice is a one way street.

So, this wouldn't bode well for Sam's future- obviously all these sacrifices happened so Sam could eventually sacrifice himself! Except, what about Mary?

Mary's was the original sacrifice; she sacrificed to save John. But she didn't sacrifice her life; she sacrificed Sam.

Obviously, she didn't do it in so many words. That YED was gonna be coming back to collect her child was more understood than explicit (if I recall correctly; it's been some time since I've seen the episode). And it's always seemed to me to be something of a Rumpelstiltskin type deal.

So what does this mean? If Sam is a sacrifice, is he capable of sacrificing himself? Is Kripke gonna do some horrible "balance" shit like have Sam sacrifice himself for selfless reasons, as opposed to Mary sacrificing Sam for selfish (albeit completely understandable) reasons? I don't think Show will kill off Sam and not Dean, but I am worried that Sam will be called upon to make some kind of final, ultimate sacrifice.

What think you guys?

Mary--(Sam)-->John--(life)-->Dean--(life)-->Sam--(???)-->(???)

ETA: Help me with my homework! What's your favorite artist's rendering of a Greek/Roman myth? (Can be sculpture, photography, painting, etc.) *bats eyelashes at* Nevermind. *g*

Comments

[moodswingers.livejournal.com]

DNW. Sammy should not sacrifice himself for any reasons. I can't be rational about this. D:

[coyotesuspect.livejournal.com]

I don't want it either! D: I DON'T LIKE IT WHEN MY BRAIN GOES BAD PLACES.

[stubbel.livejournal.com]

Okay okay, this is complicated... Let me think about it for a moment...

I think it's pretty unlikely they will go there but if they would it would probably be God's Plan or something. Sam has to show himself worthy and if he does that saves the world...

Like Dean's life vs. the world and which will Sam choose?
But he wouldn't be able to do the right thing, now would he? Because no matter what, Sam chooses Dean (he always will. He chooses to be selfish.

Huh. That would actually make a cool ending (at least my sick brain thinks so *headdesk*). Sam choosing Dean and everything ending because of that.


Also, Winchester Beauty Salon? YOU WIN THE WHOLE FUCKING WORLD! xD

Ehm, I just reread this and realized that it doesn't really make any sense. Sorry for that... ^^°°

[stubbel.livejournal.com]

Ooooh, did you mean Sam sacrifising himself?
Because apparently my brain hears "Selfish Sam" and "Sacrifising" and immediatley jumps to Dean. *drop*

[coyotesuspect.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I meant Sam sacrificing himself to save the world. Since it's kind of a trope that other people sacrifice themselves for the hero, so the hero can eventually sacrifice himself for everyone else.

[coyotesuspect.livejournal.com]

Sam choosing Dean and everything ending because of that.
...I would kind of like that too. >>

[ano-resan.livejournal.com]

Although Mary did technically sacrifice Sam, she did also sacrifice herself in effort to save him. She knew that YED would be there and that she wasn't supposed to go in, but she ran in anyway and got herself killed. Although Sam was technically the sacrificed item, he was also the product of a sacrifice--although not a successful one. Maybe?

[coyotesuspect.livejournal.com]

Hm. I'm not sure if Mary had made the connection that that was the YED. She didn't seem to remember that it was ten years later, otherwise, you'd think she would have been a little more prepared. It seems more like she realized a stranger was in her baby's room and that was Not On.

Although Sam was technically the sacrificed item, he was also the product of a sacrifice

Hm. That is an interesting way of seeing it though. *thinks some more*

[canyon_deye.livejournal.com]

Okay idek but I LOVE that idea. I never thought it that way!

[coyotesuspect.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure if I love it or not. >< I only want Sam to sacrifice himself if he gets to come back to life. D:

[scorpiod1.livejournal.com]

Winchester beauty salon, LOL.

About Sam, I actually have this really horrible theory. If this is the last season, then maybe for the end, Sam will say yes to Lucifer and then take control of his body back from him just long enough to kill himself, which would kill Lucifer as well. It'll be Sammy sacrificing himself. And it fits the whole redemption=death thing. I really hope it doesn't happen though because it breaks my heart to just think about it.

[coyotesuspect.livejournal.com]

Isn't it great? :D


And. D: That is a horrible theory. *whimpers*

[brianshanelvr.livejournal.com]

Maybe Sam will sacrifice himself one way or another, but God will repay him, or Dean might make Sam realize that in his self sacrifice, he's ruining his brother in the process.

[coyotesuspect.livejournal.com]

Maybe. ):

MAYBE EVERYTHING WILL BE CUPCAKES AND RAINBOW AND GAY SEX. Y/Y?

[brianshanelvr.livejournal.com]

I like the angst followed by some gay sex! :)

[dugindeep.livejournal.com]

I'm a little sticky on the finer details, but, technically, Mary gave up a few moments of Sam for YED. She didn't just entirely give him up.

[coyotesuspect.livejournal.com]

Hee, true. But I think when you let a demon into your kid's bedroom (even for a few minutes), the understanding is that it's Not Going to Be Good.

[dugindeep.livejournal.com]

Hahaha, oh, I know, and that's why I felt wrong even bringing it up, because Mary, being a young hunter, should know the difference. But I'm sure while distressed about her family dying and then John, she didn't think it through and took the words at face value.

I mean, technically, if she had followed YED's instruction back then that he wanted just five minutes uninterrupted, she would be alive. Except she tried to step in right there. I know, I know, as a mother she's going to do these things, I'm not discounting any of this, just stating the facts.

[cherie-morte.livejournal.com]

Oh, God. I hope Sam gets to make some kind of Harry Potter-esque sacrifice that he will come back from. I just feel so awful for him because he never gets to do that, and I never realized what you said about this possibly being because he *is* a sacfirice, but now I am mulling it over and I like.

Mary--(Sam)-->John--(life)-->Dean--(life)-->Sam--(???)-->PROFIT.

I couldn't help it. Too much Southpark in my youth.

ETA: And on Mary's deal--She also didn't *actaully* know what she was agreeeing to. He said she had to let him into the house, he didn't say anything abut her having children at the time and if she'd had a bit more time to think about it she may have figured it out, but she was not in a good place mentally. That's how I'm taking it, at least, though I still call it a very selfish sacrifice.

[cormallen.livejournal.com]

on Mary's deal--She also didn't *actaully* know what she was agreeeing to. He said she had to let him into the house, he didn't say anything abut her having children at the time

I hope you don't mind me butting in, but this is similar to a very common fairy tale trope. Man is away from home, man gets attacked by monster, man begs for his life, monster cuts man a deal. "1 (or 5 or 10 or whatever number) year later, bring me what's in your house now that wasn't there when you left" (sorry, I don't have the exact phrasing, and this is my approximation of a translation from a Russian sentence). Man agrees, because it's probably something of value his wife's bought in his absence, or maybe a cow that's calved, or whatnot. What he, of course, never guesses at is that his wife was pregnant when he left and has given birth. Cue (usually exceptional) child setting off to be raised by the monster and eventually slay it.

[cherie-morte.livejournal.com]

And as any good fangirl knows, Show just loves getting all up in our mythologies/folktales, etc. :D

[coyotesuspect.livejournal.com]

Right, I would only be in support of it if he gets to come back afterwards like Harry.

But, I mean. Sam already is Harry-figure. Mother died over his crib right around Halloween, trying to save him from an evil, almost immortal villain who transferred special powers to him, etc etc.

Ahaha, I didn't know that was from South Park!

Like I said, it has been a while since I've seen it, but I feel like there was some implication that this was going to involve her child. Hmmm.

Also: WINCHESTER BEAUTY SALON: WHAT IS CASTIEL'S ROLE IN IT?

[cherie-morte.livejournal.com]

CASTIEL WILL PEDICURE YOUR TOES WITH STYLE. HE IS ESPECIALLY GIFTED AT THE SWIRLY PATTERNS.

Angels are half-Asian, didn'tchaknow?

[heartsonwings.livejournal.com]

Hmm, I've never thought of it like that...lol, I like your theory but I'm so tired right now I can't quite put into words what I think about the whole Sam thing lol.

Maybe Sam will get his chance to sacrifice himself for Dean, or even the world I don't know, I hope it's something epic lol

[coyotesuspect.livejournal.com]

I think, if there is a Sam sacrifice, it would be for the world, and not for Dean, since show has made it very obvious that Sam will always be thwarted every time he tries to sacrifice himself for Dean.

[littleone87.livejournal.com]

OH man, I hate all of these sacrifices. GUH. I'm sure in the end though Sam wouldn't die over Dean, you would think they would both go out guns blazing. So hopefully Sam won't sacrifice himself in the end. Can you imagine how people would react to that? EEK.

And Winchester Beauty Salon...this is MADE OF AWESOME!

[coyotesuspect.livejournal.com]

I don't think it would end with Sam sacrificing himself for Dean (he's been thwarted at every turn, so far). I think it would be Sam sacrificing himself for the world. And while I don't think one brother will die and the other will live, I can see how it might end that way. :/

ISN'T IT? POST APOCALYPSE BEAUTY SALON SHENANIGANS FOR THE WIN.

[littleone87.livejournal.com]

Oh man, that would be SO sad Sam sacrificing himself for the world! UGH. I am so nervous to find out how it will end, and if there will be a season 6!

LMAO! TOTALLY!

[coyotesuspect.livejournal.com]

Me too. D: I can't wait for May, but at the same time, I'm dreading it.

[familiardevil.livejournal.com]

Bahahaha. I saw this, had a good giggle, and then had to scroll up to see where it was from and of course it's you.

I think Sam'll have to die to save the world. But in no way do I think he'll go out alone. AND NOR SHOULD HE. BOYFRIENDS HOLD HANDS INTO THE UNDERWORLD, DEAN!

[coyotesuspect.livejournal.com]

Well, of course. My grandma actually lives in Winchester, OR, so two summers ago I went around to take pictures of "Winchester" everything, and this was my favorite.

I would be okay if they both died, I think.

BOYFRIENDS HOLD HANDS INTO THE UNDERWORLD, DEAN!
AND SUCK EACH OTHERS' COCKS.

[familiardevil.livejournal.com]

Amazing. What else was there?

I really want it to end with them dying. I just can't imagine another end for them that would work.

WELL, THEY CAN HOLD HANDS AND SUCK COCK AT THE SAME TIME, GAWD

[coyotesuspect.livejournal.com]

Winchester Deli, Winchester Elementary School, Winchester Nursery, Winchester Street. I'd actually be headed up there right about now if I were still at home; we always go to my grandma's for Thanksgiving.

I... really want them to live and continue hunting. How likely do you think it is they'll die considering the interview you posted last night?

I APPROVE OF THIS PLAN.

[familiardevil.livejournal.com]

That is so adorable, negl.

I don't know how they'd die, but I just feel like, for me, it'd be the right ending for them. Going out together as brothers, etc.

[cacklesthewitch.livejournal.com]

You just made my head hurt. I cannot even fathom Sam making the ultimate (as in final) sacrifice. NOOO

WINCHESTER BEAUTY SALON \o/

[coyotesuspect.livejournal.com]

I don't want it to happen either. ): *has made herself sad*

DEAN BECOMES THE FINEST HAIRDRESSER IN ALL THE LAND! SAM LOOKS ON, SMILING FONDLY, AND TAKES CARE OF THE MONEY.

[wutendeskind.livejournal.com]

This is really interesting meta to consider. I'm not sure the show thinks of it like this? Which isn't to discount what you're saying, but I don't think Sam not having sacrificed himself has to do with him being a sacrifice himself so much as it's the way the family dynamics are built. Sam is eternally the younger brother and his relationship with Dean is also very often parent/child. In relationships like this, older usually sacrifices for younger.

I think we're trying to move away from that dynamic and allow him to grow into a spot as Dean's equal (not that I fault either one of them for it having taken this long), so if there is sacrifice on the show, I think it would be together. I doubt (and by doubt I mean "hope with everything in me") that we're going to be seeing more of the Winchesters sacrificing themselves in big, life changing ways for each other.

[coyotesuspect.livejournal.com]

See, I would agree with you about the writers not thinking about it this way. But "other characters sacrifice themselves for the hero so the hero can eventually sacrifice himself for everyone else" is such an engrained narrative in our society. The writers may be doing it unconsciously.

And then you consider that Sam has, since about s3, been (often in visual ways) hinted at being a Christ-figure, (i.e., shots of him looking like he's being crucified). And since Sam's narrative is ultimately one of redemption and maturity, it isn't completely insane to think that he might end up sacrificing himself to save the world.

Um. Yeah. I'm done.

[lady-eilthana.livejournal.com]

I don't like the idea of which sacrifice Sam will have to make. *protects her Sammy and pretends nothing bad is gonna happen*

[coyotesuspect.livejournal.com]

I don't like the idea either. ): My brain just takes me bad places.

[lady-eilthana.livejournal.com]

Yup. I know that feeling too well. *headdesk*