Wincest! The Musical
Dec. 22nd, 2009 01:13 amThanks to
familiardevil for looking this over for me. It's always good to have someone support my crazy. <3 (And, yes, I kept the title because it amused me.)
I'll start with your basic disclaimer: I don't condone incest, and, personally, I don't ship other incest pairings besides Sam/Dean. Not because incest is immoral- I get nervous when people start bringing morality into discussions about sexual practices- but because it is incredibly unhealthy. It's a sign of a relationship that has gone deeply wrong and, honestly, it's a little sad that someone could never quite manage to see beyond their immediate family.
But Sam and Dean, and their relationship, are already deeply fucked up. They're everything to each other. Dean went to Hell for Sam; Sam would have gone to Hell for Dean. You can argue that John did it for Dean, but it makes far more sense that a father do it for his son, than someone do it for their brother; a parent shouldn't have to bury their child.
What's most telling, though, is what happens after the other dies. Dean sees absolutely no way of living without Sam. It's not even a question of whether or not he's going to see the Crossroads Demon; it's only a question of how long it will take him to decide. Sam is the same, and, when his deal is refused, he doesn't move on with his life- which would be the expected reaction for someone who has lost his brother- he goes on an epic quest for revenge, crossing several very important moral boundaries in the process because Dean is and was the single most important thing in his life.
That's what it comes down to: Sam is Dean's everything, and Dean is Sam's everything. That may sound melodramatic (because it is), but it's also true.
There're a couple lines of dialogue in Tall Tales 2.12 that, to me, kind of exemplify this point. It's very brief, blink and you'll miss it kind of stuff, and not really anything I've ever seen pulled out to explain wincest. It's right after Bobby accuses the boys of bickering like an “old married couple.”
Dean: Yeah. Except old married couples can get divorced. We're more like Siamese twins.
Sam: (irate) It's conjoined twins Dean!
Here we have Dean, who has been furious and peeved at Sam for the last few days, admitting there's no way he could ever see him and Sam part. They are, for good or for ill, stuck together. And Sam may correct him, but he doesn't correct him in on that part.
All other relationships therefore become ancillary. I honestly don't believe Dean and Sam could ever love anyone as much as they love each other. If, for example, Dean and Jo had become a couple, I don't see how that pairing could have worked in a way that wouldn't have been extremely insulting to Jo. Dean would forever have put Sam ahead of her. It's laughable to suggest that Dean or Sam could be capable of loving someone more than they do each other. They lack the history, and for Sam and Dean, it's all about the shared history. Their pasts have not just made it so that they're the most important people in each others' lives, but also that they're the only people who can understand each other.
To a certain extent, the show backs up this interpretation of their relationship as a romantic/sexual one. Season 4 and the early part of season 5 were a giant metaphor for a marriage being broken up by marital fidelity. Sam was off to see the other woman; Dean was stalking him and checking his phone messages. The final scenes in 5.01 and 5.02 are break up speeches, and 5.04 is Dean telling Sam he'll take him back because, in his own words, they keep each other human.
Sam and Dean are essentially nothing without each other, and that's some really fucked up codependency.
I know this kind of in for a penny, in for a pound thinking is fallacious. Just because Sam and Dean already lead messed up lives, doesn't mean their lives should become more messed up. That would just be making things worse.
But here's the thing- all of the above just explains why I see wincest as possible and inoffensive, which is an entirely different beast from why I ship wincest.
On a purely superficial level, there are a lot of reasons to ship wincest: the boys are incredibly hot, Jared and Jensen have amazing chemistry, and the smallness of the cast make it so that there aren't a lot of other options. And some of those other options can be just as, if not more so, squicky, especially if we're talking about vessels and issues of consent.
But none of that is really the reason I ship Sam/Dean. I ship couples for lots of reasons- because it would be hot, because the two have (or would have) an interesting dynamic, because it's fun, and because I honestly think that those two people are the best-suited for each other.
Sam/Dean has bits of all the of the above. It would be hot. Their dynamic is extremely fascinating, and most of the reason I watch the show. And, for reasons stated before, I think they're the best fit for each other because of the horrible circumstances that make up their lives.
But simply? I think it would make them happy. Or, at least, I think it would make their lives a little less god-awful.
I don't subscribe to the belief that someone has to be in a longterm romantic and sexual relationship to be happy. But I think, for most people, it certainly helps. Sam and Dean are, really, already incestious in every way except sexually- the one line that society has, more or less arbitrarily, deemed inexcusable to cross. But their relationship resembles much more a partnership than a brotherhood; they live together, their emotional lives center on the other, their main concern is the other person. Adding sex is not only not that big of a deal; all things considered, it makes the relationship more complete.
It means they're getting physical intimacy and comfort from someone who isn't a one night stand, from someone who cares about them more than anyone else possibly could, from someone they trust and respect deeply. It is simply not something they could get from anyone else. I love this show. I love the Winchester brothers. And I really don't want anything except for them to be happy. And I think this might help in that. There's no way they're going to be able to find an outside romantic relationship that provides that level of comfort.
I came into this fandom pretty appalled at the idea of wincest- and it's a large part of the reason it took me until season 3 to start watching. I started reading wincest fic because I was curious and because the gen fic I was reading was unsatisfactory. It was missing a component, and, I felt, denying the intensity of Sam and Dean's relationship.
I started, and I continue, to ship wincest, because it makes sense to me.
And, on another level, rules almost don't apply to Sam and Dean. I was in second grade when I started reading Greek mythology, and I quickly became obsessed with it. Greek mythology, of course, has more than its fair share of brothers marrying sisters and the like.
Of course, they're all gods. And yet...
When Sam and Dean fight, the world ends.
Now that they've made up, I have no doubt they'll manage to save it.
When you're talking about a love that epic- normal rules almost don't apply.
As Sera Gamble herself said, Supernatural is all about the "epic love story of Sam and Dean."
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Date: 2009-12-22 09:26 am (UTC)no subject
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Date: 2009-12-22 09:26 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-12-22 09:31 am (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2009-12-22 09:35 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-12-22 09:46 am (UTC)*uses matchy match icon*
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Date: 2009-12-22 09:40 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-12-22 09:46 am (UTC)*squints at*
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Date: 2009-12-22 09:42 am (UTC)And as my icon description says, "Wincest is best!" The end.
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Date: 2009-12-22 09:49 am (UTC)And I approve of your icon description. VERY MUCH SO.
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Date: 2009-12-22 09:44 am (UTC)I always find it funny what an uproar fandom as a whole got in over Sam/Ruby because of consent issues. Even when "Jane Doe" was ruled dead they still had issues with it, which I understand and generally agree with, actually. ...But then massive parts of fandom seem a-okay with Dean/Castiel...even though it's even worse because Jimmy is still alive inside his body (unless he died in The Rapture, I don't know) and he's married with a KID! How is that not worse?!?
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Date: 2009-12-22 09:45 am (UTC);)
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Date: 2009-12-22 09:50 am (UTC)Also, I'm kind of amused that you came into this fandom appalled by wincest because I WAS THE SAME. I actually avoided the fandom for a while after I started watching the show after discovering it. Actually, before Supernatural my two biggest fanfic squicks were incest and RPF. OH MORALS, HOW EASILY YOU CRUMBLE.
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Date: 2009-12-22 09:52 am (UTC)LOLOLOL ME TOO. I STILL COULD NOT READ RPF UNTIL THIS SUMMER.
Oh, special hell. At least we'll be there together. *clasps hands*
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Date: 2009-12-22 10:21 am (UTC)OH, AND FOR THE LOLZ: I ALSO CAME INTO THE FANDOM TOTALLY REFUSING TO SHIP IT. I managed to deny it until All Hell Breaks Loose Part 2, and that takes a loooooooooot of denial, especially when I had
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Date: 2009-12-22 10:32 am (UTC):#)
I ALSO CAME INTO THE FANDOM TOTALLY REFUSING TO SHIP IT
LOL. THIS SEEMS LIKE A RECURRING FANDOM. SAM AND DEAN IZ IN UR MORALS, STEALIN' THEM AVAY.
*<3's you like whoa*
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Date: 2009-12-22 02:28 pm (UTC)I honestly read wincest before I started watching the show regularly, but incest in works of fiction really doesn't bother me that much, so it wasn't a huge leap when they're hot and care each other more than anything. Despite shipping a few other pairings hardcore, I really don't think they could ever be truly happy if their lives weren't lived around each other and that means that any other relationships they have are going to be unsatisfactory for both them and their partners.
It's best if they just satisfy each other.
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Date: 2009-12-23 07:51 am (UTC)But, yes, I agree with this completely: It's best if they just satisfy each other.
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Date: 2009-12-22 03:09 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-12-22 06:40 pm (UTC)I love you too.
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Date: 2009-12-22 03:46 pm (UTC)YES, to all of this.
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Date: 2009-12-22 06:41 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-12-22 04:17 pm (UTC)It's funny because I still cannot do it, no matter how wonderful your diatribe is, but honestly? Every single thing you counted out here (aside from sex) is why I love these boys and their relationship. I love that it goes beyond just a sibling, but how entangled they are, and how no matter what, they do whatever is remotely possible to save the other. They've each done it before, and will do it again. But I can't take that last step.
I DO know that the reason I adore their dynamic is because my family is much less invested - not in a bad way; I still love them all and know that they help me out in their own ways - but my brother is almost more a buddy than a sibling, and while my cousin sometimes steps up like a brother, he's kind of an idiot and impossible to rely on. So I LOVE how these boys are so closely entangled in the other's life, and how much shit they've put up with just to stick it out. And yeah, it still sounds so romantic, I know this, even as I type, but I just ... you know.
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Date: 2009-12-23 09:22 am (UTC)Second, thank you for the kind words! I'm glad this didn't come across as preachy or petty.
I also understand completely that you can't ship it. I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of why we can and can't ship anything is mostly irrational. It's a gut thing, and there's a huge difference between intellectually seeing why someone could ship something, and shipping it yourself. Most of our reasons our just retroactive excuses. (Which more or less invalidates this entire thing, but, ah. Well. *g*)
And I even couldn't ship J2 until this summer. RPF was a huge squick for me, and now I'm more or less fine with it. Not to imply you'll eventually come around on wincest, but I know what it's like to have a total block on a certain type of pairing.
I think, ultimately, what makes SPN is the relationship between Sam and Dean. There's an intensity to their relationship that's both terrifying and enviable; I can't imagine being loved by someone as much as they love each other (and I mean that in a perfectly gen way). And, admittedly, there's a small part of me that almost feels that by adding a sexual component to their relationship, I degrade it. It's so much more pure without the sex.
tl;dr I completely get what you're saying, and appreciate you reading this despite not shipping wincest yourself. <3
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Date: 2009-12-22 04:43 pm (UTC)I have not much else to say, other than - yes!
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Date: 2009-12-23 12:55 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-12-22 04:50 pm (UTC)I went into the show already shipping J2 (I'm totally an RPS person and a lot of my flist was constantly squeeing about it, so I couldn't help it), but I also went into it knowing I would ship Wincest. I had heard Dean went to Hell for Sam and already knew how epic their chemistry was--for me it was just a matter of actually watching the show. :P But I did come to Love Sam/Dean more than I ever thought I would (they're my OTP to end all OTPs and nothing I had discovered since I first stumbled upon the popslash fandom five years earlier had managed to unseat JC/Justin). It is really weird for me to be this into a media fandom though! I'm having a good time comparing how it's similar/different to/from RPF ones and how the dynamic here is different because we have both J2 and Sam/Dean (whereas with Harry Potter, for example, the RPF side of things never took off). Yes, I'm a total loser.
Anyway, this post made my day brighter and made my love for you even more epic. ♥ ♥
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Date: 2009-12-22 06:31 pm (UTC)Sometimes I get there, but then I fall back into the abyss after watching IKYDLS.
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Date: 2009-12-22 06:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-12-23 12:53 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-12-22 06:45 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-12-23 12:54 am (UTC)I look forward to reading your thoughts!
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Date: 2009-12-22 07:36 pm (UTC)Thanks for sharing this!
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Date: 2009-12-23 01:12 am (UTC)Also, ICON WIN.
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Date: 2009-12-22 08:00 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-12-23 12:43 am (UTC)You are, of course, welcome to return the favor about any ship (or non ship) you'd like.
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Date: 2009-12-22 08:17 pm (UTC)So from now on when people say 'brothersecks? Wut?' I'll just print this out and be like READ IT AND WEEP, BISCHES. <3
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Date: 2009-12-23 12:44 am (UTC)Oh, hai. This is me as well. I JUST WANT THEM TO GAZE SOULFULLY INTO EACH OTHERS' EYES AND RUN OFF INTO THE SUNSET TOGETHER.
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Date: 2009-12-22 09:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-12-23 12:40 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-12-22 10:41 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-12-23 12:40 am (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2009-12-23 12:19 am (UTC)THIS
I avoided Wincest like the plague the first few months I was in the fandom. But now I've fallen and fallen hard (curse you, Candle-beck!). Your argument is exactly the reason why. Thank you for being so articulate.
And Happy Holidays! :-)
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Date: 2009-12-23 07:00 am (UTC)A very merry holiday season to you as well! =D
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Date: 2009-12-23 12:21 am (UTC)Seriously, I avoided this show for FIVE YEARS, and I was so incredibly squicked out by the Wincest while I stayed away, and now? I HAVE FALLEN LIKE WOAH. *g*
MY MORALS THEY ARE GONE.
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Date: 2009-12-23 06:58 am (UTC)Ever since I lost my morals and discovered wincest, my life has improved 1000%. :D
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Date: 2009-12-23 01:01 am (UTC)*HANDS OVER THE INTERNETS*
And some of those other options can be just as, if not more so, squicky, especially if we're talking about vessels and issues of consent.
THIS. THIS SO HARD. there is no consent issues with wincest unlike some other gross disgusting non con pairing that fandom seems to fawn over *puke* and i hate how just because has a friggen penis (which i thought angels don't?! actuall, but whatever) it's okay and moral. and this is why i can't stand dean/castiel, with wincest... there's really no consensual objections. they're both adults, they do what they want to do and they can so no.. with castiel/dean, there are lots of consensual problems. for one. castiel is an angel, and angels aren't supposed to feel love or any emotion really. yes he's becoming 'more human' but still, and two because he's an angel he has a HOST body, one that we know and met and, personally fell in love with, yes jimmy did say 'yes' to being a host body, but that doesn't mean castiel can use his body for whatever the hell he wants without regard or respect to the body. my friends say i can drive their car all the time, doesn't mean i am going to a monster truck rally and have it be the dummy. and so what if the body is dead, that's actually another problem i have with it. because for one, there's a family out there, a daughter and wife, that we've met that would probably love to have the body back to bury it, since they did seem to be a religious family. and another problem i have, is the body is dead... would dean really sleep with a dead body? no. i had the same problems about sam/ruby as i do castiel/dean because it's the EXACT SAME SITUATION. a host body/supernatural spirit and a winchester brother. i'll ask you this. if castiel stayed in the little girl's body than would you still see no problem in shipping them? it'd still be castiel, NOTHING would've changed there, except for the host body. so would it still be okay then?
*contemplates fu dean/castiel or wincest sex*
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Date: 2009-12-23 07:57 am (UTC)And I agree with everything you say about Dean/Castiel. Serious issues of consent there. I think what really bugs me though is that we're supposed to find the angels more sympathetic because they "ask" their vessels first. But, really, their vessels have no idea what they're signing on for. They're basically being lied to and manipulated. At least the demons are honest about the fact they're just riding the body without permission.
I've also always thought it would be interesting if Castiel had been forced to use Claire's body (either after the Rapture or after Castiel's "death" in the first episode of season 5). Would the Winchesters still be willing to use him as an ally if he was in the body of a preteen girl? Does the consent of a preteen girl really qualify as consent? (I know what the ruling would be if this were sex we were talking about.) And would the Winchesters draw that moral line? Or would the good of the whole outweigh it?
There's a lot to think about.
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Date: 2009-12-23 01:33 am (UTC)I want this so effing bad now. I can see it now: minimalist stage set-up and some lyrically fucked-up rock numbers a la Rock of Ages...
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Date: 2009-12-23 07:59 am (UTC)Also, *chinhands*
Do go on. >D