coyotesuspect

HOW COULD YOU ASK ME THAT QUESTION, COY? I'm not even voting on that poll. Because it's not that I'm undecided. I'm pretty sure Dean IS Ben's father, but in all practicality it doesn't matter because he's not the person that raised him, so he can be the father, but he doesn't get to be a Dad and that's what Dean wants (and, frankly, what I want for him). I just took a pretty epic midterm, so I'm not sure I'm making sense, but what I mean is that if Dean is the father, I'd want him to be able to raise Ben, but he didn't get to and his life right now doesn't allow for that, so ultimately she did right by Dean by saying he's not (whether it is or isn't the truth).

ETA: I just re-read this and I think I sound kind of hostile. I just meant I wanted a little "I will explain in comments" ticky. :D ILU.

Edited Date: 2010-02-23 06:50 pm (UTC)

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It did not come across as hostile at all and was actually quite reasonable, :* ILU too.

it doesn't matter because he's not the person that raised him, so he can be the father, but he doesn't get to be a Dad and that's what Dean wants

Excellent distinction. I was referring to biological dad in my poll. *g*

I know since season 2 Sam and Dean have slowly been switching places as far as what they want out of life (Dean now wants normal; Sam, well he doesn't want, but he's cool with the hunting life as long as Dean's alive), but I'm really not sure if Dean REALLY wants normal or if he's just in love with the idea of it. I think he actually got it, he would just get bored and feel like he wasn't doing enough. Because Dean needs constant affirmation that he has worth as a human, and, when the Apocalypse isn't happening, I think his surest way of getting that is saving people.

*loves all over you*

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In that case, I should totally vote "Yes" in your poll. :D

Dean always wanted family--in whatever way he could get it. To me, part of what's so interesting about post-Apocalypse stuff is that right now neither one of them really sees a way for the Apocalypse to end and for them to come out of it alive, so we get explore the things they would want to do knowing that they have, like, actual lives in front of them. For the first time ever, it really can be about saving people, hunting things and not have it be laced with revenge and destiny and regret and all kinds of other bad things. I want them to take a break, travel the country, and buy a house. And then I want them to keep hunting, but on a smaller scale. Weekend trips or something. IDK.

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Yes, you should!

But I don't know if that's a function of the Apocalypse. I think since season 2- WIAWSNB- we've gotten the sense from Dean that he does want more than a hunting life. (Though at the same time he, sadly, doesn't see himself as deserving it. re: the alcoholism). Really, I think Dean's desire for "normal" stems from the events of late season 1/early season 2 when the "normal" he'd created for himself/wanted for so long got stripped away. Whereas for Sam, he began to care more about the hunting life and less about normal in mid/late season 2 when it started being more about his redemption-- and then took on tones of keeping Dean safe after the end of season 3. So these themes of "what they really want in life" have been in play for longer than this season. I'm interested in how the conflict will eventually be resolved; it's one that's much more long term and subtle than, "You're weak." vs. "You're selfish."

For the first time ever, it really can be about saving people, hunting things and not have it be laced with revenge and destiny and regret and all kinds of other bad things.
This is what I want to. *g* Though I don't agree about buying the house, necessarily. I don't see why you have to have a place to have a home.

(Yay thinky thoughts!)

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I completely agree with everything you've said. I don't see Dean wanting "normal" as a function of the Apocalypse at all. In fact, I think it's the Apocalypse that convinces him that not only will he never get normal, but he won't ever get anything at all. I meant it more from a writing standpoint. Like, Dean started to want "normal," but now he doesn't think he'll live long enough to even start going about getting this "normal" life, so where do you take two characters who don't imagine a future for themselves, you know?

I don't see why you have to have a place to have a home.
Because curtains look silly in cars. And yes, that is almost entirely the extent of my logic on that one.

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I think Dean's always believed that though. Sam's the one who had to be convinced. But I do think Dean still wants/kind of secretly believes Sam can have that. (Or at least he did back in Wishful Thinking; things have rather changed since then). Though I do agree that the Apocalypse has really hammered the point home that he's really, really never getting his happily after.

so where do you take two characters who don't imagine a future for themselves, you know
To the future of course! :D That's why I'm so excited about season 6. I want to see how this conflict gets resolved, and what the boys do once they no longer have to do it.

(also, I think somewhere in this is an essay about Dean as following a fundamentally Kantian philosophy.)

Because curtains look silly in cars
*snorts* Fair enough!

Also, do you mind if I link this at spnland_media to kind of give people an idea of what qualifies as "meta"-y. Because I think a lot of people are intimidated and don't realize that fleshing out convos with friends will totally count.

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Dean still wants/kind of secretly believes Sam can have that
I actually had that as part of my "Three facts that are true for a certain character" meme for Dean. I think he does a lot of the things he does with the hope that it means Sam, who is to Dean less messed up and more deserving of "normal," will get to have the white picket fence and 1.7 kids. Even if that's not what Sam actually wants anymore.

No, go right ahead! Meta definitely is a little intimidating. :D

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I think a lot (if not most) of the boys' action are largely motivated by what they want for each other, and not necessarily what they want for themselves or what the other wants for himself (if that way of wording it makes any sense- like Dean is motivated by what he wants for Sam, and not by what Dean wants for Dean or what Sam wants for Sam).

It's part of what made season 4 so tragic. ;___;

Thanks bb! :D

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This.

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♥

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Because curtains look silly in cars. And yes, that is almost entirely the extent of my logic on that one.

CURTAINS, OLIVIA. This made my night. You are the light of my lifeee.

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I think he actually got it, he would just get bored and feel like he wasn't doing enough.

I have been thinking about this a lot. While a huge part of me does want them to get that normal (I mean, I've certainly written enough post-Apocalypse domestic schmoop), I almost don't even believe it would be that easy and when I don't believe Dean would be happy like that, I find it very hard to continue to want it.

Why yes, I will be commenting on anything I feel like commenting on in this thread. MAYBE NEXT TIME DON'T BRING IT TO MY ATTENTION.

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Exactly. I mean, God knows I've been rambling to familiar about a fic idea where Dean brings a houseplant home, but I really don't think Dean would be happy with a ficus and curtains. He needs a sense of purpose. ):

I WILL BRING TO YOUR ATTENTION ANYTHING I LIKE, TYVM. YOUR COMMENTARY IS ALWAYS APPRECIATED.

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